Transcript: Ben Williamson and Cameron Schwab.

Recorded: May 21, 2025
Duration: 48 minutes
Video recording: Here

Ben:

Hi everyone, Ben here from InvestorHub. I’m with Cameron Schwab today. Thanks, Cameron, for joining and having a chat.

Cameron:

Thanks for having me.

Ben:

We’ve known each other for a while — must be coming up on eight years.

Cameron:

I remember when you first reached out — you were one of the first people who called when I was just getting started with designCEO. I think you thought I was more established than I was at the time.

Ben:

It was good timing for both of us. For people who don’t know your background, maybe you could share a bit?

Cameron:

Sure. Most of my career has been in elite sport — mainly as CEO of AFL clubs. I grew up around it. My father was heavily involved in football administration, and I followed that path. I became CEO at Richmond at just 24 and spent 25 years in CEO roles. Now, I coach CEOs and leadership teams.

Ben:

Given the audience — directors and executives of public companies — I think there’s a lot of crossover between sport and the listed world. Public scrutiny, binary results, judgment.

Cameron:

Absolutely. In leadership, judgment is inevitable. It's often binary — hero or villain, good or bad — even though the work we do lives in ambiguity and uncertainty.

Leadership promises a lot, but it never promises fairness. If you expect fairness, you’ll be disappointed. As a leader, you’re constantly making decisions with less-than-perfect information, and the judgments made on you will rarely be fair or nuanced.

Ben:

Not everyone has the same goals either. The media want clicks, investors want returns. It’s not personal.

Cameron:

Exactly. And while the media can be critical, they also play a crucial role in scrutiny — they’ve uncovered some of the most important stories in history. But on a personal level, it’s tough because you’re being judged publicly, often without empathy for how hard the job really is.

The media doesn’t have to sit across from the coach you’re firing or the player you’re delisting. You do. That’s where it can feel deeply unfair — and lonely.

Ben:

Was loneliness a big factor?

Cameron:

Yeah. I think "lonely" is the right word, but it’s deeper — it’s sadness. You wake up in the morning with dread, but you have to show up and lead. And some days, you’re just fumbling through the darkness.

You can’t have open conversations with many people. You can’t show weakness. There are conversations only another CEO would understand — and if you don't have someone like that, it’s isolating.

Ben:

t’s a lonely choke point — there are no true peers at the CEO level.

Cameron:

Exactly. Even the board and the C-suite have peers. The CEO doesn't. That's why co-founder setups like yours are rare and valuable. You have someone who truly gets it.

Ben:

We try to foster that peer connection externally too — dinners, check-ins. You signed up for this game, but you don’t have to play it alone.

Cameron:

Right. Michael Voss, the Carlton coach I work with, said it best — “You asked for this.” You don’t just ask for the good parts; you asked for the whole thing, good and bad.

You need systems in place to deal with the bad parts. For me, that meant journaling, regular exercise, and surrounding myself with people who had integrity and insight.

Ben:

You mentioned the importance of coaching. How critical is that?

Cameron:

Essential. Always have a coach. I didn’t always, and I wish I had.

The best leaders — people like Michael Voss — are highly coachable. They actively seek out truth-tellers, people who care enough to be honest. You need people around you who have integrity and insight, not just cheerleaders.

Ben:

Otherwise, it’s easy to end up excusing yourself, justifying things away.

Cameron:

Exactly. And you need people who’ll hold you accountable — who’ll remind you of what you committed to, even when things are going well and you’re tempted to let it slide.

Ben:

What were the systems that helped you most?

Cameron:

Journaling was a huge one. It forces clarity. Defining reality, giving hope — that’s leadership. Physically, cycling helped — being in a group where there’s camaraderie, but also no agenda. And crucially — don’t do it alone.

Ben:

From talking to Ryan Shuster, Leigh Jasper, and now you, the same patterns come up: systems and coaching.

Cameron:

Yes. Build the habits before the storm. Most people only think about resilience when they're already in the middle of it. You can’t build the boat once you’re at sea.

And you need people who will be honest — people who will call you out, but who care about you too. Put yourself in conversation with wise people.

Ben:

Thanks, Cameron. There’s a lot here that people can take away.

Cameron:

Thanks, Ben. Great to have the conversation.